Podcast: Week In Fraud - Department of Justice Crackdown

[Auto-Generated Transcript]

[00:00:37] It’s April fool’s week, but the topic is serious. So today I’m speaking to a serious expert, Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer at Fraud.net. Rajeev has a career that spans more than 25 years as a senior security architec at firms like Thomson Reuters and McKinsey.

[00:00:57] Thanks for joining us today, Rajeev.

[00:00:59] You’ve been [00:01:00] taking a look at the top stories, in both cybersecurity and fraud. Obviously, all of this coverage is, flavored heavily, by Covid-19 and the global pandemic, and, the different national responses to that. There was a interesting story that you highlighted in the Wall Street Journal last week about how Europe is tracking resident’s phones for Coronavirus research. Sounds like a good short-term development, but you had said that this has some serious and potentially negative implications for civil liberties and privacy. What, what concerned you, this is a anonymous aggregate data, right? Nothing personally identifiable.

Europe Tracking Cellphones for Coronavirus Research

[00:01:44] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: Yeah, I mean, it typically is, the challenge often in data inputs and sources are that, how do you verify that it is indeed aggregate, right? So when I’m sourcing data, there is a source provider for that [00:02:00] data. And, it’s getting massaged or, anonymized. So if the provider itself is, you know, removing the PII, you know, and then submitting it, it makes it easier. But if the provider is giving data in raw format and hoping that, you know, the, the client is going to massage it and clean it, now you have a big issue because data left, you know, with PII intact.

[00:02:25] So, you know, it’s very critical to make sure that. And then the sourcing or the data providers, clean it and massage it, and then send only anonymized data to the client or prospective client. and sometimes it’s not a very clean shake, a handshake. Right? So that’s where my biggest worries are that, you know, our providers really being honest.

[00:02:52]in the, you know, keeping, you know, privacy of the individuals in these circumstances. So there are many algorithms out there which [00:03:00] kind of enforced that from the get go. They’re known as privacy, preserving algorithms. there’s lot of work done in that space, especially for, you know, industrial use case.

[00:03:10] Like, you know, Vinnie, look at upcoming things in IOT and, you know, billions of devices getting onto the internet. How are we going to preserve, you know, ho your homes, your fridges, your cars, right? anything you’re going to touch, you eventually will have an IP address with it. So how do we make sure that they’re not really pinpointing to an individual?

[00:03:31] So it’s going to become a big, big issue and a lot of work is being done in that space. So I’m just, that’s why it’s very critical to make sure source. you know, sources clean on this.

[00:03:41] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: Right. And so I take it then that it was not clear to you, whether or not that privacy, it was meeting that standard from a privacy point of view for, based on what you read.

[00:03:55] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: Yeah, I mean, devil is always in the details. That’s what we have learnt [00:04:00] in information security. Right? So you just can take it for granted that what you’re reading in the paper is absolute truth. so yeah, government is saying that, you know, they’re using anonymized data, but unless. You know,

[00:04:14] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: the

[00:04:15] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: third party, you know, and who’s saying it’s really anonymous, so you’ve got to really read it and make sure, you know, it’s very fileable. So that’s the end of their thing. in GDPR expectations as well, which is what most of the Europe complies with. And we have borrowed those principles in the U S as well.

[00:04:35]you know, so you have to enforce. privacy and make sure that it’s very fireable. Right. so if subject ever comes back and says, Hey, I want a, I saw something here, you know, and I didn’t authorize you to do, so you should be able to pick that subject’s detailed private information and nuke.

[00:04:54] Throughout the history in your record and database throughout, no veterinary it is, you know, so [00:05:00] those are very strong drivers with GDPR, which Europe, you know, adheres to. Now, you know, having said that, I mean, you know, Wars or pandemics or, you know, the situation we are going through right now, there are different use cases.

[00:05:15] You know, there are exceptions. So one of the questions I did raise, in my exception, I in this, I was, that shouldn’t be relaxed. Over, you know, privacy regulations a little bit and make sure that, you know. We are able to distribute a needy things to individuals that needed most, you know, as opposed to let them die because of privacy regulations or inhibitions, if you will, or reluctance of it, you know?

[00:05:40] So I think saving lives comes first. I think we can all agree to that. And you know, if things are needed to be relaxed, let’s do so, but let’s make sure they are verifiable, you know? So here’s the switch I turned off and here’s somebody monitoring that switch stays turned off. And when I turn it around again, you know, boom, there is a verifiability [00:06:00] that.

[00:06:00] Blah, blah, blah. Turn it on again. Right. Then we can, we can have the whole trail on it. So, just logical thinking from high level.

[00:06:08] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: Is this a unique, or, I mean, is this the first time that people have really had to. Cope with these types of decisions, you know, at this level. I mean, my, my question is like, you know, yeah.

[00:06:24] To save lives, we should probably relax, privacy. Certainly there is a precedent for relaxing civil liberties, in, times. Of pandemic with things like martial law, but, you know, we have a precedent there in, in the physical world for things going back to normal when everything is done. and, and I’m just wondering like, whether it’s a reasonable expectation to assume that those higher standards of privacy, will revert, after we’re through this, this pandemic.

[00:06:58] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: Yeah. So two key [00:07:00] requirements there. I think let’s relax it, but make sure what we are relaxing and who is the monitoring body of those as well. Make sure they’re transparent and independent. Right? There is no vested interest that, you know, these are the opportunity just like hacking community or hacker world, you know, we’ll try to grab enough information and use it later.

[00:07:20] Right? So. you know, so the dark world or the dark web doesn’t wait for, you know, all of these things, they, any, any opportunity to them is welcomed. So this is our weakest point, and we have to make sure that while we are in midst of her weakest point, there is no due advantage to an adversary. Right.

[00:07:41]so we have to be diligent to make sure that it doesn’t get exploited now or in the future. Because it’s easy to lose data right now in, you know, mad rush to save lives and that. So as a security officer, we have to worry about that too, you know, cause once the, once the genie is out of the box, now it’s more and [00:08:00] more difficult to put it back in.

[00:08:01] Right. So those kinds of risks. Yeah.

[00:08:03] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: Yeah. That’s a, that’s an interesting. That’s very interesting. Cause you know, you think in terms of standards, standards can change, but once the data is in the wind, as it were, there’s no, there’s no getting it back.

[00:08:17] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: Correct. I’m going to admit it makes it very, very difficult to get it back.

[00:08:21] And those are the things we see in data breaches. Right. So what was breached, let’s say five years ago or six years ago, is still gets used against you and the hacker on the dark web community. Actually. Puts it in a persona map so they will spam you and fish you with very customized targets using some of your old, you know, data.

[00:08:43]I, I’ve gone through it, you know, people will try to scam you with a very personal passwords and it will make you believe, Oh my God. Yeah, that was my password. How did they get it? And now they have tricked you and you’re going to click on the link and boom, now they own your computer. Right. Because that was very personal.

[00:09:00] [00:09:00] So these height, you know, these data breaches, you know, these data disclosures have longterm impact and that they can come back and haunt you in multiple ways.

[00:09:10] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s why the, the entity analysis in fraud.net exists is because like, nobody’s really, nobody is clean anymore. There’s at least one, piece of information that’s been compromised for almost everybody.

[00:09:27] On earth, or am I just have I, is that just a, a reflection of my dissolute online lifestyle, do you think?

[00:09:35] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: No, I’m indefinitely, I’m in data breaches definitely happen. And, you know, as a service provider, it’s our obligation to make sure that we minimize the damage due to that breach or, you know, data, you know, exploit.

[00:09:49] Right, right. luckily for us, we are in fraud detection business, which. Which is, more like illegal, you know, entity. So we have a little bit of [00:10:00] exceptions when compared to other businesses, because you know, for example, you know, you’re trying to hire a nanny for your, you know, home sitting or babysitting requirements.

[00:10:09]you want to make sure that the person whom you bringing into your house is. Legitimate, and they are who they claim to be, right? And, you just don’t want any undue risks coming into your home. So you’re going to verify that identity. You’re going to vibe, verified that background. You’re going to verify that, you know, criminal record and, you know, so there are pros.

[00:10:31]for reaching out into privacy expectations as well as a service, because there are needs for it, genuine needs. and that’s where we play, right? So if you’re trying to verify and identity explicitly for a genuine purpose, we have to give you that as a service to that. That’s also your personal Liberty and freedom requirements.

Gates and Softbank Bring You Everything, Live

[00:10:52] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: Yeah. speaking of, global surveillance, bill Gates and SoftBank announced that they are going to launch a, a [00:11:00] blanket of satellites that will provide, live coverage of everywhere and anywhere on earth. You know, obviously we, I think that the, under the, the big takeaway message there, at least for me, is like, I better start putting on a bathrobe.

[00:11:18]you know, but, I, I hope this doesn’t cause like a run on bathrobes while we’re still wrestling with the, the toilet paper shortages here during covert 19. what, what’s your take on that?

[00:11:30] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: I mean, it’s not the first time they’re going to be seeing some of these risks pop up. I’m in Google, went through that exercise in Canada and many of the parts of the world when they tried to map the geo locations, right, with physical photos of the, you know, very particular spot, right?

[00:11:47] So, and you know, so let’s say if David is walking out, in his car with his license plate, and you know. It was, let’s say park next to a, you know, questionable [00:12:00] area. Let’s call it gambling site for simplicity, but it can go worse, right? I’m not judging you, David, by any means. I’m just,

[00:12:09] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: he’s feeling a little personal,

[00:12:12] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: you know what I mean?

[00:12:14] So, I mean, so. Obviously I would be freaked out if somebody is, you know, spotting me next to a location and somebody is drawing some conclusions. So this is a huge impact as well. I mean, there’s the Liberty questions on it because, you know, if you recall telematics, which insurance companies use. You know, by putting a gadget in a device, they have all these implications, right.

[00:12:39] Because even though you might not have any bad record on your driving, I mean, you might not have any bad record on your driving. you will still get dinged because, Oh, gee, you just happened to be in dead notorious area. Right. Now, these are still Liberty specific questions. And I think Google had to backtrack that now with the [00:13:00] satellite things in real time monitoring.

[00:13:02] Now imagine if that gets misused. Oh my God. Now you’re looking at people live, right? So that’s even more dangerous. So you have to be very, very careful how these tools get used. And you know, there’s, there are genuine needs for that too. I mean, imagine . Yeah, yeah, yeah. Poaching or, you know, shipping coming through, you know, throughout Somalia and not getting pirated, you know, you have a live visibility on these things.

[00:13:32]our weather patterns fires, right? I mean. Yeah. Earthquakes, you know, so many good things we can do with these live monitorings as well. but let’s not underplay, the downside is, you know, either, so as with nuclear, I mean, I always get the nuclear as the best example. Nuclear is amazing if you know how to use it right.

[00:13:52] But it’s catastrophic man, if it’s really misused. Right. Catastrophic.

[00:13:57] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: Well it’s, it’s interesting cause we always [00:14:00] seem to lead with the technology that could either be an amazing tool or an amazingly dangerous weapon. And we kind of say, Hey, this is out there. And then, then we figure out. how we are going to use it, after we’ve already seem to, we seem to introduce these things and then try to figure out how to use it.

[00:14:24]rather than having, it doesn’t sound like there’s a good standard for privacy that already exists, that would, set limits. So that this does become a tool and not a weapon, or where are those standards out there?

[00:14:40] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: and they’re out there. Now they’re out there. I’m gonna. if you look at GDPR, which, which has been kind of the drumming beat in the private.

[00:14:48] Well for the last, you know, couple of years. it does set that precedent that, you know, you should use the data for what it’s intended and the subject has to give you authorization for its usage, right? [00:15:00] So, you know, if David is walking in, in some neighborhoods, if I capture his license plate on his car, am I really authorized to use that without David’s permission?

[00:15:10] In Europe? You aren’t. Right? You have to seek David’s permission. Unless there was a reason for you to use that, right? So you have to discard that license plate information and aggregate it so you can say that. Okay. And you know, New York city, red light district, you know, so many cars were observed, right?

[00:15:28] That you can say, but you can say that. Or license plate XYZ was observed, which had belonged to David. Right.

[00:15:35] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: But they do make a point of saying it’s live. Right. So, I mean, if it’s live, they’re not filtering it live. Right. I

[00:15:41] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: mean, but that was exactly what Google had to do in Canada. They had to filter it.

[00:15:46] They had to mask the license plate.

[00:15:49] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: Yeah. But I mean, so there’s going to be a piece of AI that, I mean, that’s for Google maps, which are static, but I mean, if it’s live. I mean, somebody has to go, Oh, wait, [00:16:00] that’s the license plate. We can’t show that. And if it’s, I mean, AI could harness that information

[00:16:08] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: quickly, you know?

[00:16:09] So, yeah. So, if you look at the way Japan sensors porn, for example, don’t read too much into it, but this is my job to, you know, look into all this. It’s thanks. you know, the way the sensor it does, if you look at it, you know, they, certain part of the body lie of, you know, are supposed to be masked out.

[00:16:29] Right. similarly, I think when you’re looking at these things, moving objects moving or entities moving, anything sensitive around it will need to be masked out. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:40]David Zweifler, Fraud.net: and we do. So you’re saying that the AI exists, where could, it could recognize, Oh, that’s the license plate. Can’t show that.

[00:16:48] Pixelate it.

[00:16:50] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: So you have to kind of mascot out. You have to deep pixel it, kind of blur it. Yup. Right. And, and in this real time, honored rang. those will be the [00:17:00] guidelines and expectations that unless you are a legitimate entity, let’s say you’re chasing, drug TAF, illicit drug trafficking or, you know, you know, which I’m gonna call ’em

[00:17:13] Children trafficking, or you know, all those things. Right. then there’s a legitimate, so the government can obviously use that as a tool because they have to look at the license plate for correlations right there. They have a legitimate reason to track it down, but not a Microsoft, not a, you know, any entity, which has nothing to do with, you know, legal affairs, if you will.

[00:17:36] Right. So they need to, they need to mask it out. Yeah. Yeah. So.

The Second Coming of Zoom

[00:17:41] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: So I’m changing gears a little bit. There was a story last week, in the, in Apple and cider about zoom. zoom, I recall had been flagged for major privacy issues, and cybersecurity issues about what, six months ago. But, it amazingly, it [00:18:00] seems to have become the go to video conferencing solution.

[00:18:05]the official go-to conferencing solution of the Corona virus lockdown. have they sorted their problems out? does the public just have very short memories? Does their PR person deserve a big bonus this year? What, what do you think is going on there?

[00:18:21] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: I mean, I don’t like to beat vendors in necessarily, but I, I think.

[00:18:25] You know, the, the challenge, which any CEO or any privacy officer needs to look at as a risk officer, if it will, you know, and your drive to make it ease of use, right? Because you want to increase your footprint, and you know, market share of all these installs. so you have to make it easy to get it installed, which is what zoom did.

[00:18:47] They made it. Really very easy for you to install it, but they use some tricky and unethical methods to make it so right. Without telling the user. [00:19:00] Right? So if they had been a little bit more transparent about it, it, they wouldn’t be taking so much flack, but the fact was that they were kind of a little bit charity and behind the scenes about it.

[00:19:11] That’s what got them in trouble in the market, but they’re stocked then. And on Trumbull, right? They’re still doing pretty good. So it also tells you that there are very few takers in the market who value their privacy and ethics the way some of them. Us do, or I think in, in, in information security world do, right.

[00:19:32] So I think, you know, these things do get measured eventually, and that’s why you have fines. And that’s why I think they’re facing some trouble in Europe right now as a, as the tool to, you know, there’s some blockade going on against them, right. In, in EU, if you, if you read that news care for like, so yeah.

[00:19:51] You know, the lesson learned there is that be transparent. And be ethical about it. and, you know, don’t do shady practices and [00:20:00] still make nigga it easy to install, but, you know, don’t, don’t go behind the scenes.

[00:20:05] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: So I should not be taking the PostIt, that covers my web camera, when it’s not in use, I should not be.

[00:20:13] Leaving that off anytime and

[00:20:17] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: no, you should always do that as a best practice, right? I mean, you know, in information security, world defense in depth always applies. So you never know, right. If not zoomed, some other agent might just trigger your video camera or microphone. So why keep it enabled if you don’t need to?

[00:20:34] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: I kind of feel like if there’s so desperate that they want to see me. When I don’t realize that they kind of, they’ve earned it, man. I mean, just give him, throw him a bone,

[00:20:43] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: you know, let’s make ourselves feel more important in the world. Yeah.

[00:20:50] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: I really don’t think there’s anyone who wants to see me. That’s,

[00:20:54] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: that’s a, that’s an interesting point you mentioned, I mean, millennials actually think like that. I mean, if you look at [00:21:00] their Instagram and the way they post in social media, I mean the value, their privacy to be not off that importance right now, primarily because in a mad rush to be on the, you know, in the moment.

[00:21:14] As opposed to thinking in the future, which we see often in the, you know, sec information security world. I mean, you have said that here, Raj, put your photo on LinkedIn, right? You have told me many times there’s a reason I don’t put it right. I mean, LinkedIn has been breached many times. It’s not that LinkedIn hasn’t been breached now, who else got, you know, photos and information, et cetera.

[00:21:38] So, you know, then you look at your private information, like, you know, photos and yeah. It’s darn serious. I mean, so you know, a true practitioners thinks about these things, not today, but how it’s going to get abused. Let’s say if five years from now

[00:21:53] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: I thought you were just leaving your photo off because you are trying to drive more business to your pay website.

[00:21:59] I guess [00:22:00] I learned something today. This is good. Good

[00:22:03] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: stuff that that can be an idea to, you know? No, but to keep it, to keep your curiosity, I’m going to probably put a morphed picture in or some cartoon or something.

[00:22:13] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: You see my picture. I got my little cartoon, my Lennon ask cartoon.

[00:22:18] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that’s still something, right?

[00:22:22] So let’s at least make sure that the AI is of LinkedIn. Don’t keep bothering you. Hey, put your picture. Put your picture in

[00:22:32] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: there. Don’t see

[00:22:34] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: exactly.

Department of Justice Crackdown on Covid-19 Fraud

[00:22:37] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: So the department of justice just filed its first enforcement action against Covid-19 fraud. showing that the, best and worst of human nature seems to thrive during difficult times.

[00:22:52]w what’s the dominant types of fraud that the, the department of justice is targeting here?

[00:23:00] [00:23:00] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: I’m in, obviously. But practical ones are the prize gallery saying, I think, you know, people tend to resort to hoarding and the thing the world is ending, and that’s very immediate. That’s very obvious for us to see.

[00:23:14] So in all these epidemics, saving lives is off what most importance. And you know, if people are hoarding masks or medical supplies, come on man, give it up. Right? I mean, so those are the things, even the hospitals have done that, believe it on American capitalist model. It shocks me sometimes is that, Oh, it’s my hospital.

[00:23:33] And I’m going to be the first one and I’m going to hoard as much as I can. Right. And let even hospitals do that as a practice. It, it, it, it makes you wonder, what the heck are we doing, as a civic society, right? Let alone individuals. So we can forgive individuals when hospitals are engaged in these kinds of practices.

[00:23:55] So DOJ needs to keep a tight vigil on these things [00:24:00] and make sure that this is why we have government, right. To kind of bring some balance and these kinds of things hit us. So I’m very, must have. Price gouging of each. I think they’re doing a good job at it. and I think social media has played a huge role in that because people are very aware and they’re blaming and shaming, you know, stores and really making them pay.

[00:24:22] Right? So I think that has worked in good favor to the consumers. you know, social media. Which has helped a DOJ, and over governors and, you know, attorney Journal’s offices pretty well in that, that sentence. secondly, I think fishing is very much on the rise, right? So like I mentioned earlier, hackers look out for these opportunities, van, I mean, they’ll just try to.

[00:24:47] You know, see any window to scam you and vitally, you’re feeling most vulnerable and depressed and sad. You know, they’ll trick you and try to fish you more. So a lot of, [00:25:00] you know. scams are popping up, phishing scams, trying to, you know, trick you into doing something that you aren’t supposed to do and, you know, bait you.

[00:25:10] Right. primarily it’s driven with money, you know, trying to get a backdoor into computer, watch you for a few days, you know, those kind of things. So, and obviously traveled related frauds. Are going to be on the rise, you know, credit card frauds, right? Gift cards, frauds, you know, so, because governments are going to come with these, programs, right, voucher programs, and help Poor’s in these kind of situations.

[00:25:35] So they’ll try to milk those opportunities. So we, so that’s where we play a good role in that, from FraudNet perspectives. Like, we can target those abuses. You know, in real time and catch, catch it and help our customers on that.

[00:25:52] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: What are the things, I mean, they, they’ve, they’ve cast a pretty wide net.

[00:25:57] Are there, is there anything that you think [00:26:00] that the department of justice should be looking at but isn’t, or, or hasn’t gotten around to yet?

[00:26:08] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: That’s a good question. I’m in. there’s always. room for improvement. I think. yeah. I, one thing which I would love to see them do is use our techniques.

[00:26:18] To give real time pricing information and how the purchasings are happening, for example, across the U S or even the world, for example, right? So because we track all these product schools and we can easily tell them, you know, if there is a deviation in the price gouging, for example, in pocket a and pocket B and so forth, right?

[00:26:38] And then they can use that information and empower themselves and go and target these entities that are abusing it. Right know, because people buy it. I mean, you know, human nature is to. Take care of your loved ones first. And they’re gonna by any means. They’re gonna lean towards that, but their measure already a [00:27:00] of good people as well.

[00:27:01] And I think in bill Clinton’s world, word, the world works because majority of people think good as opposed to bad. So I still believe in it. but there are still quite a few who think bad, right? And, and, and, and they will try to hoard and abuse it and milk it. So, that’s why we are here to help put a stop to that.

[00:27:21] So I, I think DOJ and attorney general office definitely have room to, you know, see these, these kinds of

[00:27:28] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: frauds. Cause I’ve got a little time to move that cash of diapers at $20 a pop. I’m good. I’ve got a couple of weeks. You think.

[00:27:37] Rajeev Yadav, Chief Security Officer, Fraud.net: I would say, no, actually I’m, I’m  has been pretty proactive on it because they tweaked their AI models to kind of self-regulate.

[00:27:45]eBay not so much. Right? So eBay is a little bit tricky. and a couple of other e-commerce pled from, they’re tricky because it’s peer to peer. So, you know, what David thinks is worth value, you know, for a toilet paper or diaper if he thinks it’s. [00:28:00] Good enough for 30 bucks, I’m going to buy it for 30 bucks.

[00:28:02] Right? So that’s the trade off.

[00:28:06] David Zweifler, Fraud.net: I’ve been speaking to Rajeev Yadav, chief security officer for fraud.net for the week and fraud podcast, fraud.net uses collective intelligence and machine learning to make digital transactions safe. Learn more. At fraud.net if you want to dive into the numbers around travel fraud, which Rajeev mentioned in the podcast, take a look at the Fraud.net travel survey, which tracks fraud across credit cards, carriers, destinations, points of origin, airports, and more.

[00:28:41] You can find the link to the complete study in the description and it’s free. This is David Zweifler for the fraud.net podcast.